The Power of Timeless Principles with John P. Covey

In this episode of the Franklin Planner Lead Your Life Podcast, host John Harding sits down with leadership consultant and former university president John P. Covey to unpack the transformative power of timeless principles. Drawing on his personal connection as the nephew of Stephen R. Covey and his extensive experience in leadership development, John explains how distinguishing between internal values and external natural laws allows us to transition from being “unconsciously competent” to “consciously competent” leaders.

Whether you are seeking to navigate unexpected life disruptions, rebuild trust in a key relationship, or drive synergy in your organization, this conversation offers a practical blueprint for aligning your daily behavior with the foundational rules that govern human effectiveness.

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Episode Timeline

00:00 – Welcome and introduction to guest John P. Covey.
01:18 – Reflecting on Stephen R. Covey’s legacy and early FranklinQuest days.  
06:20 – Defining the distinction between internal values and external principles.  
14:40 – Exploring physical and social principles using the gravity analogy.  
19:25 – Mastering the Emotional Bank Account to build strong trust.  
27:15 – Comparing fear-based motivation with trust-based leadership in business.  
31:50 – Understanding the Principle of Alignment and its impact on results.  
38:35 – Walking through the Maturity Continuum and the 7 Habits.  
44:20 – Anchoring to timeless principles during times of unexpected change.  
49:05 – Identifying the three hardest principles to practice daily.  
52:10 – Practical strategies for repairing low-trust relationships.  
56:05 – Concluding insights on applying The 7 Habits for long-term growth.  

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Episode Transcript

​John Harding: All right, well, welcome back to the Franklin Planner: Lead Your Life podcast. I’m John Harding, and delighted today to have a discussion with Mr. John Covey. John, welcome to the podcast.

John P. Covey: Thank you. It’s great to be here with you and have this discussion.

John Harding: Well, John is a friend of FranklinCovey, a great friend of mine, and John, you have, I think, just a powerful background. And today, you’ve been kind enough to join us to talk specifically about timeless principles and the power that they have for people to be aware of and really to kind of align with.

And I thought that we could have a discussion about that, and as we’ve talked a little before, I’m excited to have this discussion with you, and I’m believing that the Franklin Planner members and those that may be listening probably have these principles, like, in their heart and in their spirit. But really, it helps to talk about it, and it helps to relate it, it helps to review it. And even preparing for this, I’ve been kind of energized by some of the things that you’ve shared. But let me just give a little background and then, uh, let’s get into it.

John P. Covey: Great.

John’s Background

John Harding: Your background— You did your schooling at BYU, but you have this mix, I think, of having taught the Franklin Planner or FranklinCovey and the—

John P. Covey: Yeah.

John Harding: —Stephen R. Covey, and also Hyrum W. Smith… kind of just giving them great credit for what they would say they never discovered or invented the principles, but—

John P. Covey: Yeah.

7 Habits expert

John Harding: —you know, certainly made it kind of a life’s work to bring those about, to make them practical, to maybe order them. And you’ve had the opportunity to, around the country, teach the 7 Habits of Highly Effective principles, the content around time management, the content around building trust. And you also have a unique relationship with Stephen R. Covey. So, tell us what that relationship is.

“It was just Uncle Steve”

John P. Covey: Well, uh, Stephen is my uncle, and it was very interesting because growing up it was just Uncle Steve. I mean, he wasn’t… Well, when I was growing up, he did not have the notoriety, of course. Um, and he was teaching at BYU and doing consulting, and it wasn’t until actually I got a job with FranklinQuest selling Franklin Planners, and I actually did a little training of the Franklin Planners also. I was down in Arizona. I was on— I was calling people, and I would introduce myself, and they would say to me, “Are you related to Stephen Covey?” And after that happened several times, I finally thought, “Wow, people really know this guy.” I honestly didn’t—

John Harding: [Laughter] “It was my uncle!”

John P. Covey: It was Uncle Steve. And so it’s been an incredible experience. Steve walked his talk. Certainly not a perfect person, but a person continuously striving to improve himself and grow, and showed me a tremendous amount of love and respect. It was a great experience that I had with Steve in growing up and knowing him as my uncle.

John Harding: Well, it’s interesting. You know, I have known and worked with, uh, Stephen M. R. and Sean and David and, you know, known the direct kind of sons. And as I’ve known of you, and then we worked at the same, you know, in the same years and business, but as I’ve also seen you teach, you are very much, in my opinion, like Stephen R. And I have a cousin, and this cousin of mine looks much more like my dad, and he’s super thin and really in great shape, and I’m like, “Hey, you’re my cousin, and you look more like my dad.” You have your voice, the way you teach.

University president, leadership advisor, consultant

Anyway, it’s just… Thank you for what you’ve done for Franklin Planner. You also, after your work there, you were president of a university. You’ve also been a COO in a few different roles. You’ve been a leadership, uh… really a leadership advisor, leadership consultant. And you kinda have a cool mix of researching, studying, teaching, helping other people do this, but then also doing it. And a lot of people that write books and a lot of people that teach are, you know, researchers, or— and they still have great credibility because they have, you know, researched this, but I think it’s a powerful mix when you’ve actually been practicing and operating.

Why We Need to Understand Principles

So, for today then, let’s see if we can bring greater awareness. And, you know, our mission is to inspire people to create their best life and lead their life, and we kind of share—I think this is a common theme of people that maybe are trying to help people grow—but Franklin Planner, we have these fundamental premises that we like to repeat: that in each of us is greatness, but also there’s a leader in there, and there’s kinda this unlimited ability. And so as we think about what matters to us, there’s an unusual and very powerful connection to principle.

So, we’ll kinda turn the time to you and just, we’ll go back and forth in some questions, but could you just share with us, uh… start this discussion and share with us some things that would help us and help the listeners really maybe evaluate: Do I understand what principles are, and am I tapping into those—

John P. Covey: Yeah.

John Harding: —in how I choose to live my life?

Becoming consciously competent

John P. Covey: So yeah, John, absolutely. I’m very excited to talk about this, because people really don’t understand principles, and as we will discuss today, principles are affecting them. So what I like, you brought up kind of earlier, but to become consciously competent versus unconsciously competent. So all of us really understand principles in our life, and as we talk through this, it’ll become evident. And so the power of understanding principles is that we become consciously competent. We start to actually be able to say, “I’m starting to get this. I can actually consciously decide on these things, where before, I was just kinda ‘it felt good’ or whatever, or it was kind of obvious.” So I’m excited to talk about that.

I just wanna say one thing about Stephen. Every great author like Stephen is influenced and brings in the ideas and thoughts of others, and how they bring ’em in and put them together, the 7 Habits is no different than that. Stephen, the idea of being proactive… uh, Viktor Frankl. That’s where he got his inspiration about that, and took that habit and then… But one of the things that Stephen did that—and he’s done a few things that are 100 percent him, just unique to him—and one of them is to really talk about this idea of principles. And he loved it.

And let me just start by saying principles are easy to understand. I can—I’ll give you a definition and you’ll be able to say, “Oh, okay, I got it.” What they’re really hard to do is apply them in our lives on a day-to-day basis. And so I’ve taught this idea of principles to a lot of people, and those I have coached over the years, they start to really understand this. So I’m hoping today we’ll start a discussion and thought process around what principles are. And to understand principles and what they are, we really need to understand values also. Principles and values.

Principles versus Values

Before we got on the podcast, I asked you, “So John, to understand principles, do you need to understand values? What’s the difference between a principle and a value?” And you kinda said, “Ooh, okay, now that you really pressed me on this, I’m not quite as sure I can come up with a super distinct, uh, distinction there.” So let’s talk about values to help us understand about principles.

Values are internal. Values are a hundred percent internal. We get to decide all of our values. So if I were to say to you—not that you’re a… you may or may not be a big NFL, uh, football follower—what team in the NFL do you like? What team would you say, “I love this team”?

John Harding: Well, I’m gonna say Britain Covey’s team, the Philadelphia Eagles, and they would be very, very smart to re-sign him and play him on every punt return. So, Eagles.

John P. Covey: Eagles. That— awesome. And I could say I love the 49ers. I love watching Steve Young and growing up with that. So who’s right?

John Harding: Um, whatever we want. [Laughter]

John P. Covey: Right. These are values of ours, right? I could say to you, what music do you like? Do you have a particular type of music that you like?

John Harding: Well, I would choose James Taylor just for easy listening.

Values are internal and drive behavior

John P. Covey: Awesome. James Taylor. And I love James Taylor. I really love some country, more of the modern country, soft rock kind of a feel. So who’s right? Well, neither of us, right? We’re both right. These are our values. They’re internal to us. We get to decide. You can get into values around politics, which we will not do today. [Laughter] “I like this person, you like this person.”

So these are a hundred percent internal. They are part of us. These are our values. So, here’s something that’s very interesting, is that our values drive our behavior. They don’t drive most of it. They drive 100 percent of our behavior. Our values do. So for instance, what is the most important thing in the world to you right now, John Harding?

John Harding: I’m gonna tell you my wife.

John P. Covey: ’Kay. And I’m gonna suggest that that’s not accurate. In this moment—

John Harding: You’re gonna say gravity. [Laughter]

John P. Covey: No, I’m not gonna say gravity. In this moment right now, what is the most important thing to you? So you’re thinking big picture. That’s who you are. You think big picture. “What are my highest values? What’s most important?” I’m gonna suggest that this conversation with me, right now, this podcast, is the most important thing to you in your life.

Now, your wonderful wife, is she important to you? Yes. Obviously. The challenge of our lives is that we live our lives moment by moment. We don’t live our lives in anticipation, we live our lives moment by moment, and so a good exercise would be: Think back over this last week. And think, “How many times in a moment have I made my wife the most important thing, where I’ve really spoken to her, we’ve had a deep conversation, or I’ve done something nice for her,” or whatever. So if we look at the behavior of our lives, that actually tells us what we are valuing moment by moment. So here’s the principle: We always do that which we value most in that moment. We always do that which we value most in that moment. Now, I know your wife is one of the most important things in your life. But then the question is, does getting with—

John Harding: I’m not gonna tell her that you were saying it was this interview. [Laughter]

John P. Covey: Well, in this moment! Only at this moment! Because I know you’re gonna look back over the last week and you’re gonna be able to find times when she was the most important to you, and that’s what’s going to be reflected in that moment-by-moment decision. So our values drive all of our behavior, a hundred percent, and— Our values show up moment by moment. And that’s where we get into the challenges where my family’s the most important thing to me, but I never see them ’cause I’m working so hard.

John Harding: Right.

John P. Covey: Well, if your family never rises to the point of being the most important, then I’m gonna suggest that that is a good feeling, and that’s— You know, we judge ourselves on our intentions, others on their behaviors. So that is a good intention, but the reality is, is that, no, you never value them the most in any given moment. So. That’s values. Internal. Does that make sense?

John Harding: That makes sense.

Principles are external and drive consequences

John P. Covey: Feels good? Okay. Now… principles. Principles are different than values because principles are external from us. We don’t get to decide what principles are or are not. Stephen Covey puts it this way: “We are not in control. Principles control. We control our actions that are driven by our values, but the consequences that flow from these actions are controlled by principles.” Values, internal; principles, external.

So, for instance, let’s give some examples. Um, let’s use the law of gravity because everybody understands. Let’s talk about some natural principles, ’cause everybody understands that, because we’re all familiar with that. So we have the law of gravity. You and I, right now, this very moment, we both vote out the law of gravity. We do not believe in the law of gravity anymore. And—oh, I raised my hand, and it came up.

John Harding: [Laughter]

John P. Covey: I don’t, I don’t… I’m gonna lower my hand.

John Harding: I got it.

John P. Covey: Um, so you and I have voted out gravity, and we get a group of fifty other people who also vote out gravity. It’s restricting! We don’t like it! It’s telling us what to do! It’s no good. We get together, we join hands, we go to the top of a building and unanimously say, “Gravity does not exist,” and we step off the building. What happens?

John Harding: Gravity governs. Doesn’t matter.

John P. Covey: Gravity governs! It is external from us. And so principles are external. And the consequences of them is not decided by us, it is decided by the principle. So let’s do another simple one.

Principles in Relationships

John Harding: Well, let me ask you this. Can I ask you this, John?

John P. Covey: Yeah, please.

John Harding: ’Cause I just am excited about this. So if… I mean, that is a physical example. This question gets asked, you know, and I… Do they govern socially? So that— There’s a lot of physical principles like that.

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: So do they… Expand on how they govern socially or behaviorally.

Social principles are adaptable

John P. Covey: Yeah, absolutely. And they absolutely govern us just like the physical principles, like govern— like, uh, gravity, that we’ve just been talking about. It looks a little bit different, but it still ultimately governs us. So let’s talk about, for instance, relationships and how principles govern our relationship. So if I were to ask you the question—we all struggle with some relationships in our life—John, what is something that’s specific that if you do, you’re probably going to not have a good relationship with that person if you do that?

John Harding: Well, I think if you…are not honest.

John P. Covey: Okay. So if you’re dishonest with them. You tell them one thing, and then do another. You make a commitment, you don’t keep it.

John Harding: You may not just be this very dishonest person, but you might have an intention, but really… it ends up, to them, you weren’t honest.

John P. Covey: On a pretty consistent basis. Because if you’re honest all of the time and then you have a moment that you’re not, that’s where gravity and natural principles, they are not forgiving. Gravity says, “There’s no forgiveness here. Look, you’re a great guy. Sorry, you just made a mistake.”

John Harding: “You didn’t jump off the building all those other dates, but then you did.” [Laughter]

“Oh, I’ll forgive you”

John P. Covey: [Laughter] Yeah, and “but I’m gonna be nice to you today. I’m gonna decrease my gravity, and you’ll have a soft landing.” No. Principles, natural principles do that. But in the human element, principles of relationship, we go, “Oh, I’ll forgive you. It’s okay.” And so if you’ve lied to me once, or you made a commitment and you’ve broken it… but then if you keep doing it, and doing it and doing it on a consistent basis, here’s how it affects us.

Patterns of distrust erode relationships

Can you have— If on a one-to-ten scale, ten being the absolute best, deepest, highest-trust communication relationship possible, a ten… If you or I are lying or breaking these commitments, not keeping the commitments that we say we will, can you have an eight-, nine-, or ten-type of a relationship with someone that you’re doing that with?

John Harding: It’s highly unlikely, right? That just even that lack, that creates a lack of trust.

John P. Covey: I would say it’s impossible to have a ten-out-of-ten relationship with people who are not making and keeping commitments, who are lying to you or deceiving you or something, taking advantage of you—that you can’t do it. See, that’s the principle at work. It’s not going to allow you. Now, again, it’s a little deceiving, ’cause you can kinda get away with it for a little bit. You know, your kids, and even a spouse is not going to divorce you overnight ’cause you didn’t keep one commitment, right? But when it becomes a pattern, you’re still together, but the relationship can never get to where it needs to be.

The Emotional Bank Account

And so we have these social principles. Steve gives a tremendous metaphor around this, which is one of the most powerful metaphors that there is, and this is all Stephen R. Covey: the Emotional Bank Account. Now, you’ve heard about the Emotional Bank Account; what’s your understanding of the Emotional Bank Account?

A powerful metaphor

John Harding: Well, what I like about that, and you’ll teach this better, but just like a bank account that you can put money into, and that balance will increase financially, or you can withdraw or write…used to write checks, or charge or transfer money. You can also take withdrawals. And so emotionally in a relationship, I understand that to be, in a way, I say just good things, good things that help the person build trust, help them succeed. I think he uses very specifically “trust.” But those things, those are deposits, right? And like you’re saying, as you build a relationship and you really honor respecting that person and the kind of principles that make a good relationship, this balance goes up, like, wow.

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: And then if you make a mistake, or if you are not… You can make withdrawals. And like you said in your example—it depends. You could feel like you have a large balance, and hopefully you do, but then you could also be misunderstanding even what deposits are, so it’s—I think it’s important that in a relationship, the person that maybe you’re developing that Emotional Bank Account with really is the one that gets to decide if you’re really making deposits, so it’s important—

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: —but that metaphor is, wow, you know, make those deposits, build up that trust. Now is that— am I close?

Withdrawals are inevitable

John P. Covey: Yeah, you’re right on. And so let me just add a couple of innuendos in there that’s so important. This is how we create relationships in our life. The Emotional Bank Account. Making deposits into people’s Emotional Bank Account. This is how it’s done. Now, the difference, the only part where this metaphor really breaks down, is that in a financial institution, we make deposits in anticipation of making withdrawals, right? But not in an Emotional Bank Account with other people. We don’t anticipate making withdrawals—but we’re going to. It is, it’s life. It happens. No matter how good our relationships are, no matter how deep our Emotional Bank Account, we’re going to take some withdrawals.

But if you have a huge positive Emotional Bank Account and then you make some mistake, you take some withdrawals, it’s fine. Because you’ve made so many deposits over so many years. And so you continue to have a very strong relationship even though we all make some mistakes. So this is how we create relationships, and it doesn’t matter if it’s with a significant other, a child, a friend, a coworker, a client at work—it doesn’t matter. This is how you build the relationship. And as you alluded to, there are two keys to building this relationship.

The recipient must consider your deposit a deposit

Number one is just what you said, and the principle is this: it’s only a deposit if the recipient considers it a deposit. So I’ll give you just a quick story. Many, many years ago, my wife grew up, and she loves bread. Her mother would make bread three or even four times a week, fresh bread. She would eat bread for a meal. I think bread’s great. It helps me get the meat in my mouth. Uh, you know, I like bread, it’s fine.

Well, Mother’s Day was coming up. We were not in a great financial position at that time—a bunch of little kids—and breadmakers, self-doing bread makers where you put all the ingredients in, you plug it in at night, and a fresh loaf of bread appears in the morning—they came out. They were a lot more money than I would normally spend, but I thought, “Okay, this is it. I’m going to spend this on my wife. It’s gonna be a huge deposit for her.” So I bought it.

Mother’s Day comes. We have a little tradition in our home that if it’s your birthday or special occasion, Mother’s Day, we go in, we give you breakfast in bed, we sing to you, and we give you gifts. So the kids, we came in, we did that. Kids gave her a few little gifts, and then I brought out the breadmaker. She unwrapped it. She looked at it and said, “Oh, wow, this is great.” This is great? I thought there would be flailing of arms, hysteria, kisses. I mean, “this is great”? So I walked away from that experience and I said, “Why? Why is this not the deposit that I thought it was?”

And what I realized was my wife is emotional. My wife loves emotional gifts. What I realized is if I would’ve given her a dozen roses every single day leading up to Mother’s Day, that would’ve been a ten out of ten. That would’ve been unbelievable.I don’t like flowers. I don’t really like emotional gifts. If you give me flowers, you might as well just give me thirty dollars and then burn it slowly over three or four days until it’s gone. It’s not a deposit to me. Deposits only occur when the recipient considers it a deposit. And the power of that is something that we have to learn over time.

Make deposits consistently and frequently

Let me give you one more. Deposits need to be consistent and frequent. Consistent and frequent. The story is told of the man who’d been married for five years, and his wife looks across the breakfast table and says, “Do you love me?” He pauses and says, “Well, I told you I loved you when we got married. If things change, I’ll let you know.” See, for men, we think, “Well, is there a joke in there?” No, it doesn’t work that way. They need to be, deposits need to— Uh, we go to five-year reunions and see friends there at high school. We only need to see them every five years, and we have a great relationship. What does the deposit look like for my wife and I, for instance, or a good friend? Very different. Daily. Multiple times a day. So, consistent and frequent, and then they get to decide. Those are the two keys for the Emotional Bank Account.

Emotional Bank Accounts in Leadership

John Harding: John, that’s powerful. Do you think that as a leader… Uh, you know, we talked— Do you have an example in leadership, whether it’s a team, an education or classroom or a business setting, in all the teaching you’ve done, what would be some examples if you’re a team leader—or you’re the leader of your family, it really applies the same. Do these principles— It doesn’t matter, they’re for human effectiveness.

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: What would be an example if I’m a leader, of how that might apply in how I lead? Or, also, if I’m a team member and I’m trying to be supportive of following our team leader—“I know I can lead my life, I know I can”… Leadership is not a position—but where we have formal leadership roles, how might this apply in that setting?

John P. Covey: So you bring up a whole bunch of different things, so let me give you a couple of examples. Number one, the Emotional Bank Account works up, as well as down, as well as sideways. So if I were to say to you, um… Let’s say you’re in an organization, you have someone you report to. How is your relationship with your boss? “Well, they decide that.” No, you decide that. How are you making deposits into their Emotional Bank Account? What does a deposit look for the person who you report to? Are you doing it frequently and consistently? With your coworkers—what do emotional deposits look like for them? What do emotional withdrawals look like for them? Those who report to you, if you have those, what’s your relationship with them?

“It works exactly the same”

So it works exactly the same. So let’s take principles and say I came from… The last eight years I was with a digital marketing company. And as a digital marketing company, we had these clients that— You live with your clients day to day, ’cause you’re doing their marketing. And so every single day, I mean, it is a constant battle. How do you keep a client happy and satisfied? You know, what is a deposit? So the same principle applies to them. What is a deposit for a client to keep them happy? What— Off the top of your head, John, what would you say a deposit could be?

Make sure customers feel understood

John Harding: Oh, so important. I would think in that setting that you really listen to what our, you know, goals are and what our customers are, and then you’re constantly doing that. You’re constantly listening and bringing your expertise.

John P. Covey: So do they feel understood? Do you really understand me and my vision? Some people want to make money. That’s the only thing they care about. Some people are driven by mission. Some people are driven by—who knows? Do they feel understood, and are you then responding to that and making deposits in those areas? Yeah. That’s what they’re looking for. And then you’ve gotta find that out from them. That’s where the work begins. You could say the same thing with getting the most out of people.

Motivate with trust, not fear

So let me give you an example here, because if you’re a leader, you want to have people produce as much as they possibly can. Their principles work in all sorts of ways. So just for time-wise, let me just say some of the principles that you can use for getting more productivity out of people is a command and control. “I’m taking over. I’m gonna tell you exactly what to do, and this is what, you’re gonna do it. And you’re gonna be scared for your job every day you come in here, so that way I’m gonna get you to work hard.”

John Harding: You’re kind of working at fear. That’s similar with fear, fear-based motivation.

John P. Covey: It’s a fear-based motivation. Can that increase productivity?

John Harding: It can.

John P. Covey: Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Harding: If you look back in history, it had times when it really did.

John P. Covey: Right. In fact, that’s mainly how people have been motivated, and moved forward. So the question is, when you get into a competitive environment—and some people are using that for their motivation, so they’re getting a certain level of outcome—then the question is if you had a different approach. You’ve had and talked with Stephen M. R. Covey about his Trust and Inspire book. If you wanna get the most out of people, and you can get significantly more out of people not in a fear-based but in a trust-based environment.

Now, that doesn’t mean you’re not pushing them and things, you’re not demanding things and expecting, having high expectations. But when you start to get their hearts, not just their hands, when you start to get them involved in the process of problem-solving and working things out, you move to a whole new level of productivity. It’s called synergy. One plus one equals three or more. So there are principles that get results. Fear is a principle that gets results. If you want greater results, move to getting people involved, creating an environment of growth, setting expectations, and holding people accountable. So these principles are absolutely as valid in business and day-to-day operation as they are in our personal lives.

John Harding: I love that.

The Principle of Alignment

John P. Covey: Can I share one more quick principle, just real quick?

John Harding: Do it.

John P. Covey: I wanna share the principle of alignment. So John, if you’re in your car and you’re driving down the road and the car is pulling hard to the right, you say, “I am out of…”

John Harding: Control.

John P. Covey: Control, yes.

John Harding: [Laughter]

John P. Covey: And alignment. Would you agree? You’re out of alignment. Sorry, I didn’t set you up enough.

John Harding: [Laughter] When they run into me, then I—

John P. Covey: You’re out of control and out of alignment, ’cause it’s pulling hard to the right. So, is your car really out of alignment if it’s pulling hard to the right?

John Harding: Yes.

John P. Covey: ’Kay, I’m gonna suggest it’s not. It’s not out of alignment. What is it in alignment to do?

John Harding: Pull to the right.

Perfectly aligned to get the results you get

John P. Covey: Pull hard to the right. So the principle is, we are perfectly aligned to get the results that we are getting. All of us, you and I in our lives, the results that we get in our businesses, the results that we get, we are perfectly aligned to get those results. That’s a principle that should guide us. If we don’t like— When you’re going down the road, you’re pulling hard to the right, what is your desire? Your desire is to go straight. That’s not what you’re aligned for.

John Harding: No.

What principles govern the results you want?

John P. Covey: So if we don’t like the results that we’re getting in our lives, both on a personal and a business situation, we need to say, “What are the principles that are governing what I’m getting?” And I need to start to understand that, and then I need to start to change my thinking and behavior to get in alignment with the principles that are gonna take me to where I want to go.

John Harding: No, that makes sense. Let me ask you this. If we… You know, it would be amazing to some way be very conscious, become aware, and get aligned with the principles that are the most powerful. Is there… Is there a way to do that? And then—well, let me just ask you that. What would be a good way, if I’m listening to this and now I’m starting to think about this— I’m probably thinking my life, where it’s going well, is most likely aligned with some powerful principles, and where maybe I’m not, or trying to maybe help someone else, I might be able to become aware of the principle, understand it. Is there a way to kind of do that? If I’m listening to this, I’m driving along, “Wow, I’ve been thinking about what I wanna do. I know what was important to me this week. I might have a pretty good handle as I use the planner, as I think about it.” This is kind of a deeper…maybe reservoir of maybe joy and benefit there. Do you have any suggestions on—

The 7 Habits: A Life-Changing Framework

John P. Covey: Yeah. I’ll just tell you what my experience, I’ll just tell you what my experience is, because back about a year after The 7 Habits came out, my dad called me up and said, “Hey, there’s a 7 Habits seminar down”—I don’t know if I even read the book, maybe I glanced at it—“a 7 Habits seminar down where you’re at.” We were down in the Phoenix area at the time, and I went to it, and it changed my life. I realized that I was not a highly effective person. [Laughter] And I started to study the 7 Habits, and I started to study this idea of principles.

And so this is what I ask myself continuously right now: What are the principles that will govern this outcome? I’m chatting with my wife, I’m at work wanting to get more productivity out of my people, or solve a problem, or work with a client. I ask myself, “What are the principles that are going to govern the results that I want to get here?” So I have just continually asked myself that question, and it’s taken a long period of time, just truthfully, to start to understand this idea of principles, how they govern us, me, how to kind of see them and where they’re at.

“Value principles”

But over time, you start to see and understand these principles. And Stephen says, “Value principles.” That’s what he says. Because where do a hundred percent of our behavior come from? Our values. So, value principles—that’s what Stephen would say to us. And it’s a process, and it just takes time.

John Harding: When people… I love that. I don’t know if we have time to do this, but I’d like to do two things, maybe in this order. If we just for a second said, what’s the benefit? Just to kinda summarize, what are some of the benefits of understanding the principles, aligning to them? And then you mentioned the 7 Habits, and we hadn’t planned this in detail, but I wonder if, John, after we just talk about the benefits for a minute, if we can just, maybe just bullet-list, kind of go through the 7 Habits and say, “Hey, here’s the habit. Here’s the principle.” Because that’s at least seven, and maybe each of those maybe even has one or two more, but that would be maybe a review for us. And then those are a good base. They aren’t the only principles, right? So if—

Useful foresight

John P. Covey: They are so foundational, though, John. They are so foundational. That’s where Steve’s brilliance came in. So let me just start with your first question, uh, the benefit. When we become consciously competent, when we become conscious of principles, we can start—[Laughter] I mean, I don’t… You gotta be careful here. We can see into the future. I can just tell you right now, I can meet a couple—yeah, I can meet a couple, and I can talk to them, and I can see that they’re constantly on the different pages. They’re taking constant withdrawals out of the Emotional Bank Account. I can see their future. This is not a mystery. [Laughter] I am not, uh, you know— I can tell you exactly what’s going to happen with them.

I can do the same with a business. I work with and consulted with leaders in our organization. I could tell you exactly what’s going to happen and where they were going, because I could see what they were valuing and what they weren’t valuing and the principles that were going to govern them. So the benefit is that we literally can shape and craft our lives and to move us forward. And the 7 Habits is the most amazing thing.

The Maturity Continuum

The other thing that Stephen brought to the table that is one-hundred-percent unique to him is the Maturity Continuum. The Maturity Continuum is the most incredible diagram and tool anyone can have in their life. And let me just go through the 7 Habits with you. The Maturity Continuum starts out on dependence, and then in the middle is independence, and at the very top, interdependence. So if you want to move from a dependent state to an independent state, which we all want to get in, you practice Habits 1, 2, and 3.

Habit 1: Be Proactive

Habit 1 is the habit of “Be Proactive.” Being proactive says, “I choose my response in every situation.” It’s not being aggressive. Being proactive may be saying nothing and doing nothing, but you are choosing your response. You have independent will, you can choose it.

Habit 2: Begin with the End in Mind

Habit 2, then, is beginning with the end in mind. Every meeting, every conversation, everything that you do in your life, you have a vision of where you want to get. What that vision does is it tells you what’s most important and what is going to take you there.

Habit 3: Put First Things First

And then Habit 3 is you put first things first. You use Habit 1—your independent will—and you say, “I am going to choose to see where I want to go, have a vision where I want to go, my end in mind, and I have the self-discipline using my planning system to implement and bring these big rocks into my life and focus on them.”

Elon Musk had a conversation just a little while ago. You can like him or dislike him; he’s an amazing individual either way. He said, “If I can just get one or two things done each day, I’m really moving things forward.” So he understands. He has a vision. He knows what’s most important, and he puts them together. Stephen calls this the Private Victory. Why the Private Victory? Because it’s a hundred percent within our control: your control and my control. And as you do that, you can take any particular area of your life, and you can use those three principles, the tool of the planner, and you can move from a state of dependence to independence in that area.

Habit 4: Think Win-Win

Now, if you want to go beyond that, which is really where it’s at, you want to go to interdependence, then you start to practice Habit 4: “Think Win-Win.” That’s the principle of mutual benefit.

Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood

Then as you do that with other people, you then start to communicate with them, which is Habit 5: “Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood.” As you communicate with them and you have their mutual benefit and your benefit and theirs in mind, you can then create synergy.

Habit 6: Synergize

One plus one equals three or more. That is the Public Victory. And as you put those things together, now you can start to create something exciting, well beyond anything that just you or just I could create together—in a marriage, in a relationship with a son or daughter or a friend, and of course, at work. We’re looking— That is the competitive advantage at work, is synergy.

Habit 7: Sharpen the Saw

And then Habit 7 is “Sharpen the Saw,” which is self-renewal. If you’re not self-renewing, then you can’t even do all of that very well because you’re struggling in those ways.

So those are the 7 Habits. Those are the seven principles. If you just focus on that, they will help you become highly effective people in every aspect of your life.

The 7 Habits stand the test of time

John Harding: That’s powerful. It strikes me; I’m thinking about technology and AI and how the world’s changed, and I had the benefit of knowing your uncle and working with him, you know, and I just think the world Stephen R. Covey wrote 7 Habits for at the time, if you contrast that, even though, you know, we’re part of that generation— The world now, even Stephen would say, “I don’t even recognize this world.”

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: So that’s how the world’s changed. That’s how technology races along, maybe even our lives. But what did he… I don’t know, what did he understand about principles that makes them seemingly even more relevant now? So, and maybe this is not only technology, but when change comes upon us, what is the benefit of this principle approach?

John P. Covey: So Stephen wrote The 7 Habits in ’89. 1989. It is a thriving hundred-million-dollar company today. Show me another person who came out with a book in ’89 that a company is still thriving on today, and the only reason why is because it’s based on timeless principles. And so no matter—AI, it doesn’t matter. If you use these principles—being proactive, beginning with the end in mind, putting first things first—it doesn’t matter if it’s in a paper Franklin Planner or on a digital phone. If you use the principles, they will help you become highly effective.

And so that is Stephen’s brilliance. He went to principles, and consequently they are timeless, and that’s why the power of what he has done continues on just as strong today as it was, how many years ago? Forty-some odd years ago.

Using Principles to Navigate Life

John Harding: Right. No, that’s powerful. Now, we get questions, and I’ve got some that are, you know, from on this subject, and let me just ask you a couple. Let’s just—our time’s kind of getting close here—but let’s just still do a couple things together, John. This has been so great. Uh, this is something I think we all could listen to you for a long time about. Let me give you a scenario. Say I’m going along in my life and things just change unexpectedly for me. Uh, let’s say it could be job related, it could be family, it could be health. So now I’m kind of faced with something I didn’t anticipate. It seems to be challenging, and I didn’t have a chance to plan for it, so I’m not ready for it. Now: principles. What is the benefit now? How can principles help me in a setting like that where I’m surprised, I’m disappointed, or I’m challenged, and I couldn’t plan for it?

John P. Covey: You haven’t even brought this on yourself. You may have been part of it— You know, we’re perfectly aligned to get through this.

John Harding: Could be a relationship thing, just change that’s happened in—

Have changeless principles at your core

John P. Covey: It’s just changing. So this is what I think Stephen would say. He would say the key for all of us is to have at our core, at our center, principles. Because no matter the wind around us, the whitecaps around us, if we have these changeless principles at our core, if I’m still making and keeping my commitments and making deposits to those who are closest with me, even if I’ve had some other disastrous things happen, if I’m still keeping these principles of my personal effectiveness at my core, I’m still valuing them more than anything else, that is what gets us through the storms of life, and business, and whatever that is. And so, do we understand?

Now, you may say, “Well, I’m out of whack.” So, “I’ve been out of whack, and so these things have hit me. I’ve been so career-focused that now my family life is shot, and I’ve been aligned to do this. Now I can see it. I didn’t see it before.” Go back to the principles of the Emotional Bank Account.

Maintain your Emotional Bank Account

Now, there is a reality that with the Emotional Bank Account: some withdrawals can bankrupt your Emotional Bank Account, and you may need to start with another person to move forward and start to making, keeping those commitments and making those deposits. But oftentimes, we can just go back to the Emotional Bank Account, and this is where—not the natural laws, ’cause they have no mercy—but the humans, we do have mercy. We do give people second, third, fourth, fifth chances. So if we go back to true principles and really truly value them, we can help bring ourselves through these things.

“It’s kind of an anchor”

John Harding: I love that. I think… Well, while you spoke, I thought of—and you talked about the waves—it seems like— Is this possible, that while you might not know exactly what to do, if you focus on principles, it’s kind of an anchor or it’s a stable place, your fear can reduce. You can say, “Well, this is something I can do,” and rather than just…I guess, just kind of looking at all kinds of alternatives, if you look at those principles, they’re a great place to start, a great place to end, and solid ground. Right? They are timeless. They don’t change. We can maybe… I know the quote has been used, and I don’t know if it’s Stephen R., but we repeat it. “We can’t really break those principles. We can break ourselves against them—”

John P. Covey: It’s Cecil D., uh, B. DeMille says, “We cannot break the commandments. We can only break ourselves against them.” He said that when he made The Ten Commandments movie.

Final Tips from John P. Covey

John Harding: That’s a good one. So they’re kind of a place to immediately look and to keep in just, uh, as a priority. I also am interested, John, as you’ve done so much teaching, coaching, and advising: Is there one that stands out that seems to be hardest to do for people? Where you just, like— You said it’s hard, and yet the living life with them is much better. But as you taught, is there something you can share there on, “Hey, this is, this is one of the hardest ones—”

Humility, proactivity, and thinking win-win

John P. Covey: I would give two, I would give two. Number one, the principle of humility and being willing to change and grow and learn. The second one would be the principle of being proactive: choosing your response in every situation, not allowing yourself to kind of fly off of the handle. And actually, I’m gonna give you one more. The third one, I would say, is the principle of thinking win-win. Because too often we move to lose-win. If it’s good for you, then it must be— “If it’s a win for you, then it must be a win for me.”

That’s not true. We need to have the proactive muscles to say, “I need to know what a win and what is good for me, and I am committed to helping you get yours, but I’m also committed to helping me get mine, and I will use my proactive muscles and not be reactive, and I will use the principle of humility to be willing to open my mind and look at alternatives and not be reactive.” So I would say those three would be absolutely foundational, that no matter what comes at you… And you don’t always create it. I mean, somebody out of the blue can be doing things that you didn’t know and just shake your life up. But if you stick to those three, it can really help give us a foundation.

John Harding: I love that. If I’m, uh, driving along listening to this podcast—and as I’ve sat here with you, if I think of just the scenario of every day—while some of these are difficult, isn’t true that if you’re aware of them, that sometimes just a mention or a reminder, like about humility, or listening, or, “Hey, what’s your plan?” that actually, you can very quickly adjust?

John P. Covey: Right.

John Harding: And also, you know, as you plan your day and as you reflect—that part isn’t hard, if you do some of the work and you understand. Are there some simple suggestions you would offer, but just about daily, how to kind of keep yourself maybe on signal or, you know, on that road?

The Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod

John P. Covey: Yeah. So I would suggest that— Now, obviously you do— the Franklin Planner does some, this daily teaching and training. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of The Miracle Morning. Hal Elrod, um, he has this Miracle Morning, and it’s how you start every single day. It’s a very short paperback, and it is one of the most powerful things you can do every single morning to get yourself aligned with principles and with where you should be doing. Planning is part of that. The Miracle Morning, I’d suggest that little book. That is so powerful.

Experiment with deposits

John Harding: We’ll put that in the show notes. Okay, I’ve got one more. This one is one we get a lot that I wanted to ask you. If you… Uh, we asked this to Stephen M. R. the other night in our live event. This is a common one, and it could be at work or it could be a very close personal relationship. Let’s go back to this principle of trust and also listening. Humility is part of it. If you have a relationship, and it could be something you did or something you’re hoping to grow, you feel like maybe the other side of the relationship, you know, where it’s just not where you want it to be, so kind of this Emotional Bank Account.

We talked about how deposits can be made. We talked about how withdrawals can be made. This scenario is if when you, really, it’s not where you want it to be—a son, a daughter, a colleague—and you want to increase it, let’s kind of just maybe end with that one. What are— How should we tap into the power of principles? And what are a couple of ideas that, if we all thought about one relationship that we’d like to improve, something we could do today, tapping principles, and in the next few weeks to improve that.

John P. Covey: Yeah.

John Harding: Build that. Have success there.

John P. Covey: Yeah. That’s a great question. One of the first things I would look at is…it’s the theory on constraints. What’s keeping it from going forward? In other words, what are withdrawals for that person? Let’s get real about what a withdrawal is for that person. ’Cause I think I’m making deposits. They may not be deposits. I really need to understand what a withdrawal is for that person. And then the other thing is just the opposite, right? What is a deposit? Now, when the trust level is low, which is kind of what you’ve described in this situation, right? A low trust level. What you can’t do is go to them and say, “What’s a deposit for you?” That question in and of itself is a withdrawal, okay? So, [Laughter] you cannot do that.

John Harding: Some of us were just thinking we might need to do that

John P. Covey: I know. [Laughter] It does not work, let me just tell you right now, if the trust level is low. If the trust level is high, it does work, and they will tell you, and it’ll be great. But when the trust level is low, it does not work. So what you have to do is experiment. You know what isn’t a withdrawal—what isn’t a deposit and is a withdrawal—and so you need to experiment with what might be a deposit, and then see and experiment and try. And so that would be my advice: know what is a withdrawal, and experiment and try with what could possibly be deposits, and then be consistent and frequent in moving that forward.

John Harding: Awesome. Well, what a great— John, thanks for this. Thanks for visiting with us. If we think back, if we can understand how you began this—what a principle is and your values and the difference there, and you can choose, however, as you choose your values to incorporate and make sure your values, what you choose, how you choose to spend your time that that is respectful of, aware, and maybe incorporates what you build on—you’re going to have a lot higher probability of leading your life, of helping others, of creating your life. If what you value— You’ll become aware of these powerful principles of effectiveness. Human effectiveness plus gravity.

John P. Covey: Right.

Plan with and read The 7 Habits

John Harding: Right? So there’s great hope there. We were able to think about different examples. The Emotional Bank Account: would be kinda good to review that and think of that. Then we went through the 7 Habits, and that was powerful. I wanna get that out and read that again. You know, I thought as you said “experiment” there, that also kind of matches… You know, this is a series of things that are doable in small steps daily, but with a bit of vision about what the principles and where you wanna go on values. There’s so many different options in the planner, but I’ll just say the one that I love is what we call the 7 Habits Planner, because at the bottom of each page is a powerful inspirational kind of blend of the principle and encouraging words that are part of that 7 Habits. So that’s kind of the daily—you know, inch by inch it becomes easier. And then—

John P. Covey: And I would just recommend with that, John, is this literally The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People book. They came out with a fortieth edition, Sean Covey’s added some commentary, but they have not altered or changed the 7 Habits book. Not one word in the forty years. So I would go back and read from the—drink from the the fountain, from the very source, because, for instance, Habit 3 is the “Put First Things First,” utilizing the planner, all of those things. The principles are in there, because Stephen thought and taught in terms of principles.

John Harding: Wonderful. Well, great. Well, thank you for joining us and—

John P. Covey: Absolutely. Love being with you, John.

John Harding: And thanks to everyone out there; if you like the podcast, let people know about it. John, we will take this good interview and put it in the show notes. We look forward to having you back another time. And maybe our opportunity is our great opportunity to think about principles, incorporate ’em in our life in kind of a natural and normal way, and never forget, right? It’s never too late to create the life that you wanna have and tap into these principles to help others. So thank you for joining us today.

John P. Covey: Thanks, John.

John Harding: We wish you well, and thanks to our listeners, and we look forward to seeing you next time on the Franklin Planner Podcast.

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