Lifelong Journey of Relationship Building with Matt Townsend

On the Franklin Planner “Lead Your Life” podcast, host John Harding interviews Dr. Matt Townsend, who describes how his parents’ divorce led him to study communications and conflict resolution, work at FranklinCovey for seven years, then leave about 25 years ago to coach couples and mediate divorces. They argue that relationships are central to purpose, roles, and planning, and note a study that about 60% of millennials struggle to deeply connect. Townsend shares practical tools: a “time left” circle exercise (two years to two hours) to clarify who and what matter most; the “four lights” questions — self-awareness, empathy (others’ needs and wants), vision, and conscience; and conflict guidance to move from “smoke” to “fire” by identifying unmet “STARVE” needs (safety, trust, appreciation, respect, validation, encouragement, dedication) and “get real” by recognizing emotion, exploring stories, attending to needs, and lifting the conversation.

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Episode Timeline

00:00 Relationships Matter Most

01:11 Podcast Welcome And Guest Intro

02:59 Matt Townsend Origin Story

06:06 Roles Goals And Connection Crisis

13:48 Two Years To Live Exercise

16:29 Four Lights From 9 11

22:01 Using Four Lights In Teams

25:10 Smoke Versus Fire In Conflict

26:06 Bag Fight Spiral

27:35 Smoke Versus Fire

28:15 Starve Needs Framework

28:42 Safety Trust Appreciation

31:05 Respect Validation Encouragement

32:00 Dedication And Motivation

34:42 Suspend Certainty

37:23 Get Real Method

40:17 Leadership And Influence

46:26 Closing Invitation

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Episode Transcript

Matt Townsend: “Relationships are how you do your deepest and highest development.” That’s kind of the old, age-old quote by Stephen, right? Like— or, you know, “We climb the ladder of success one rung at a time, and when we get to the top, we find out it’s against the wrong wall.” It’s— And again, I had the beautiful opportunity recently of having my… of watching my eighth grandchild be born. Um, which is—

John Harding: Yes. Congratulations.

Matt: Thank you, it’s the most incredible thing in the world.

John: [Laughter] That is amazing.

Matt: Um, but there’s nothing more clear than in the birth of a grandbaby or a baby what matters most and who matters most. And it literally just shook me, because I realized I’ve gotta get my game even tighter. I’ve gotta get my yeses firmer and my nos stronger, and I’ve gotta know what my deeper yeses are in order to push through some of this. And so it’s about people; in the end, it’s who we all— it’s who matters most. But it’s also about doing something.

Welcome Back to the Franklin Planner Podcast

John: Well, welcome back to the Franklin Planner “Lead Your Life” podcast. I’m John Harding, and I’m delighted to be here today. We have the privilege to be with Dr. Matt Townsend. And Matt, you and Franklin and Franklin Planner go back a number of years.

Matt: Yeah.

John: We are so excited to have you here. There’s so many things you’ve done for over twenty-five years. I’ve heard you on the radio, I’ve seen you on TV, and I remember— My earliest memories of you, uh, I was getting ready for work or something or doing something, and the TV was on, and I heard you in an interview. And you were saying things that I immediately wanted to tune in on related to people getting along. You know, I’m raising children, I’m in a marriage, I’m a leader in a company, I’m involved in the community. And it was incredible. I mean, this might have been twenty years ago.

Matt: Yeah, it would’ve been. Yeah, I’ve been doing TV for twenty years.

Meet Dr. Matt Townsend

John: [Laughter] So we’re delighted to have you here and to visit with us. So let me just ask you, just share a little bit of… a little bit about yourself with us, but I know for sure from your work and your studies, you’ve got a really kind of a deep educational background. You’re a doctor, you have two masters.

Matt: Yeah.

John: Tell us about that, but what I remember and what I know your passion is to help people flourish and connect with each other, and it’s just such a big part of leading your life.

Matt: Yeah.

John: So, uh, please tell us a little bit about what you and what’s driven you this way, and then let’s talk about what you’re seeing, and what you’ve experienced, and I feel like this’ll be one of many conversations. So again, thank you for being here.

Formed by a childhood experience

Matt: Thank you, John, thanks for having me. And, uh, it’s such an honor, ’cause again, some of my background does overlap with FranklinCovey, and, um… but the funny thing about my journey, my entire life journey, it’s all been about relationships. Relationships are what I love the most. It’s… for some reason, I’ve been called into that field. I love people, and I love communication. I weirdly love conflict resolution and— But one of the things that really hit me, and I think it’s the reason I’m so into relationships, is ’cause at eight, my parents divorced. And so at eight years old, from a young age, I felt the pain of the lack of connection and the lack of being together and having that oneness.

Instilled with Franklin principles

And so my entire life I’ve kind of gone that way. I got a bachelor’s and a master’s in communications and conflict resolution. I also worked at FranklinCovey back in the day for seven years, where I got to work with Stephen Covey, John Covey, Sean Covey, um, writing content. I used to travel as a consultant. But what was so interesting about all of that is I then learned principles, and I taught time management. I taught “first things first.” And the whole time I’m like, “Well this”— In my mind, I’m like, “Does this even have anything to do with relationships?” And it has everything to do with relationships.

John: Everything.

Matt: So I loved working at FranklinCovey. And then after seven years and having the greatest job ever and working on books, I got this weird prompting—no better word for it—that I just needed to leave and go start helping couples and start helping people. So literally twenty-five years ago or so, I left and just started basically mediating divorces. I thought, “That would be fun. What could be more fun than helping two people that hate each other?”

John: [Laughter]

Drawn to relationship coaching

Matt: And, um, but it— I just got deep, and I got really into the tools, but I had already been trained up by learning the principles, by teaching the principles. I understood about the entire planning process. I understood the 7 Habits inside and out. I understood a lot of systems thinking and stuff. So I was able to then take all those gifts and those skills and those tools that you’re teaching so well there at Franklin Planner, and I was able to start integrating ’em into my life and create the exact kinda life I wanted, which was to be a coach; I didn’t wanna be a therapist, and I didn’t wanna… I do a ton of speaking, so I love the speaking side, but I wanted to coach people to give them the skills, and I’ve created what, for me, is my perfect, ideal life. And so to be on your show talking about it, it’s an honor. I love it.

John: Well, thank you. And you know what? I gotta thank you; thank you for all the great things you did while you were with us as a team.

Matt: Back in the day.

Think Carefully About Who Matters Most

John: And it’s amazing that… you know, that you would wanna go into kinda conflict resolution. Let me ask you this. As you, you know… We’ve always felt like what we’re working on is, you know, a kind of a combination of creating a mindset or paradigm, the way you think.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

John: Looking to those timeless principles and strategies, and then have the tools that give you the skills. But really, the focus has always been—and I think that’s why we have so many amazing, loyal customers—has been on improving your life.

Matt: Yeah.

John: Uh, you leading a life, and you know because you taught it so well that we always begin with purpose, and part of that purpose is, you know, what really do you wanna accomplish? What’s your vision?

Matt: Yeah.

John: And whether you look at the Productivity Pyramid and you work to goals after purpose— Although, I love Mahan Khalsa that we’ve worked with for years.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

John: You know, he would always say, “Start anywhere, go anywhere.” If you start with goals, or you start with a relationship, it doesn’t mean you can’t work your way to vision.

Matt: No, that’s right.

John: But it is amazing to think carefully about who you wanna be, where you wanna go.

Matt: Yeah.

John: And I think more than anything, we realize it later, but more and more now given the kind of the overwhelm of technology, who matters most. You know, for years we’ve said “what matters most.” Always, to be fair, “who matters most” was in the middle of that.

Matt: Yeah. That’s right.

Improving Your Relationships

John: But your relationships… And so just, uh, share with us more about what you’ve learned for today, and then we’ll wanna come back, but guide us a little bit. You know, how can we— how can we improve? What can we focus on to really create this part of our life? It’s not, what, it’s not a mission and vision and values and then you put people in it.

Matt: Yeah, no.

John: Fabric of what matters to all of us are our relationships.

Many people struggle to connect

Matt: That’s right, it’s the relationships. And one of the reasons why I think that’s super important— And by the way, relationships are hurting right now. Like, we know right now that only… that about 60 percent of people—millennials is where the study came from—60 percent of millennials have a hard time deeply connecting to their most important relationships. And when we can’t deeply connect, then what we do is we feel more vulnerable in those relationships, and then we either end up fighting or flighting or freezing or just pleasing. And none of those are great leader traits, right? To fight or flight or freeze or please, right?

Be proactive about roles and goals

There’s a time to fight, a time to flight, but really what we wanna do is not react. We wanna proactively go become the change. And to become the change, it’s so genius when you think about your roles and your goals. Roles are a really big deal right now because a lot of certain generations aren’t buying into roles anymore. They’re not buying into, like, uh, they don’t buy into education as much. Or they don’t buy into government. Or they don’t buy into family. They don’t buy into marriage. They don’t buy into religion or religious institutions. And so without these actual roles or without these actual, like, institutions that we buy into, we don’t know what roles to play.

And so what is really powerful is this age-old tool that we’ve been using with the Franklin Planner that’s been teaching roles and goals and values and mission and all of that for years. We’re literally in a moment in time where it’s so desperately needed, because if I don’t buy into my work, or the need to work, then what role am I playing as a boss or a leader? If I don’t buy into family, then what do I do for my thirties and forties and fifties?

“Relationships are how you do your deepest and highest development”

And so roles are essential, and more importantly is if we can actually connect the role to our highest values and our mission, then— My ultimate belief is the number one spiritual practice of all humans are relationships. “Relationships are how you do your deepest and highest development.” That’s kind of the old, age-old quote by Stephen, right? Like— or, you know, “We climb the ladder of success one rung at a time, and when we get to the top, we find out it’s against the wrong wall.” It’s— And again, I had the beautiful opportunity recently of having my… of watching my eighth grandchild be born. Um, which is—

John: Yes. Congratulations.

Matt: Thank you, it’s the most incredible thing in the world.

John: [Laughter] That is amazing.

Matt: Um, but there’s nothing more clear than in the birth of a grandbaby, or a baby, what matters most and who matters most. And it literally just shook me, because I realized I’ve gotta get my game even tighter. I’ve gotta get my yeses firmer and my nos stronger, and I’ve gotta know what my deeper yeses are in order to push through some of this. And so it’s about people; in the end, it’s who we all— it’s who matters most. But it’s also about doing something. Right? It’s not enough to just know people matter. I’ve gotta know how to get ’em into my life.

John: Right.

The ultimate sense of peace

Matt: Into my schedule, into my time, right? So it’s relationships, as I’ve just studied it over and… over, now, thirty-something years, it’s the only thing that creates this sense of, um… this sense of peace universally. Even if the relationships aren’t ideal—and a lot of ours aren’t—or if they’re struggling, the better we can get at getting them in our lives, the better we can improve those skills.

John: No, that makes sense. You know, what would you… How would you look at this if I put myself maybe, you know, in the middle of a circle and I drew a wider circle around myself— I know, as you mentioned, we’ve looked at roles, but if I were to then list the most important people in my life… You know, often, so there’s that exercise, and then if I’m in a team, if I’m a leader or a member of a team, if I do that same exercise—

Matt: Uh-huh. That’s right.

John: —and I say, “Hey, who are those people that are most important to what must be done, whatever our goals are?” it is a remarkable experience to then stop long enough, which doesn’t really happen that often, and say, “Hey, what is the trust level, and how well are we helping each other succeed?”

Matt: That’s right.

Determining What’s Most Important

John: Um, what have you learned? I wanted to say one other thing. What I do remember the first time I heard you while you were on your own, I remember, and I’ve seen this since, you’re unique in that you offer some really practical ways to go about this, because some of this is very deep thinking, but then—

Matt: Yeah.

John: —it’s difficult.

Matt: Yeah.

John: So, um, just share with us how might one go about, you know, identifying those relationships, and then what might be some very practical things that we could focus on?

What if you only had two years? Two months? Two days?

Matt: Yeah. Um, one of the things that I love is an activity, and I’m sure you’ve seen it in all of your years doing this, that I like to imagine, if I had two years to live on this earth, um, what would I be doing, and if I— No, if I knew, if I found out I only have two more years to live, what would I do? How would my life change if I knew—I got a diagnosis, I got two years. And what I like to do is draw that circle, and what would I be doing in my life and who would I be doing it with? And I get that circle very clear for two years.

And just that exercise is so interesting, right? Because a lot of things, if you knew you had two years to live, you probably would quit doing certain things. You know, we might quit trying to keep up with the Kardashians, or we might try to— like, we would probably move some other direction. But then once you’ve done that, then a really powerful activity is now shrink it to two months. If you had two months to live, who’s now in that circle? If you had then two weeks to live, who’s in the circle? If you had two days to live, who’s in the circle? If you had two hours to live, who’s in the circle? And I would suggest for every leader, and I wouldn’t just do it personally, but I would do it if you only had two more years in your company, or two more years with your team, or two more weeks with your team: what would we be doing?

What do you want your posterity to remember?

And I just think there’s something that gets to some real pure, uh, identity about who matters most and what activities matter most. This is literally kind of a great sifting tool. It’s like the old I-beam activity, right? And that to me helps a lot. And then what I usually like to do is I then, if we start to identify my role as a father, for example, I am really big in trying to figure out—again, this goes back so long—but kind of the attribute activity where we identify what we’d have somebody say about us. What would I want my kids to say? What would I want my grandkids to say about me? Would I want them to just say, “Man, Grandpa can sure ignore us when he watches the World Cup.” Like, “Man, Grandpa can sure get mad if you, you know, tip over his soda.”

John: [Laughter]

The Four Lights

Matt: What do you want ’em to say? And to me, that starts to do something that’s really interesting, where it starts to create in me this sense— It almost, like, dials in my conscience, and now my conscience is starting to vibrate on my most important things. I call those the— I call ’em four lights that I like to turn on. And there’s four questions that I like to ask myself that really helps. And the four questions, um, I actually learned the— I learned to do this, it was one of my last gigs with FranklinCovey at the time.

It was on 9/11. I was teaching a leadership workshop at the, um… at the LAX Marriott when the entire airport was shut down. No planes were flying anymore. And, um, we’d just seen the catastrophe of 9/11. And I called the company, “Hey,” like, “let’s cancel this. We probably shouldn’t be doing a workshop on this day.” And they’re like, “Nope, gotta do it. Everybody’s there.” So for three days I taught a leadership course right there at LAX. By the way, across the hall was the, um, the family support center for United Airlines for all the family members that died on 9/11.

John: Wow.

Matt: And so every time we’d come out of a leadership workshop on the 7 Habits, we would go and see all these people really suffering. And it changed everything we did on time management, on 7 Habits, on leadership, on planning, on— All the 7 Habits took on a completely different life when the relationships of all of us were now very raw. And so, um, I learned these four lights, and the four lights, they told a story about when the subway cars underneath the Trade Center stopped because they were out of power. They were stuck underneath the Trade Center, and just millions of rodents were running down the train tracks, okay?

Using light to navigate to safety

And you’re stuck—imagine this—in the old days when you didn’t have a nice phone with a flashlight, you just had the old flip phone, and they opened the doors to the car, and it’s just pitch black. And they— One person turned on one light, and then that light, everybody pulled their phones out, and they could just use their little green Motorola light to get out of the train car. And they all got in a row, mice running around their feet, and they kept walking down the track until they saw an exit sign, which was their second light. And they could find the exit, and they started, “Oh, there’s the party.” They started the exit, they started going up the exit, and as they’re going up the exit, they can see at the very bottom of the door another light, the third light, which was leading them to getting out of this hole, right?

John: Wow.

Matt: And then they finally worked on the door, got the door open, and they went out into just the dust-filled Manhattan. And they were able to get out of their darkness. So I found that there’s four questions I like to ask that help me in my relationships, but also in my relationship to everything around me, ’kay?

Self-awareness

The first question I call the self-awareness question. So the self-awareness question is where, when I’m doing my planning and I’m doing my day-to-day kind of evaluation of what matters most to me, I like to, I like to become aware of what part of my success I’ve been today. Or what part of my problem I am. And I just try to dial my own awareness into my own “How am I doing in today’s day and work,” right? “What part of the problem am I” is what we call the self-awareness question. Or, “what part of the solution am I?”

Empathy

The next light I like to turn on is an empathy light, and the empathy light is, I think about my most important people in my life, and I ask, “What are the highest needs and wants of the people around me?” And anybody doing this on their planner can do it. What are the needs and wants of my family role? Right? What are the needs and wants of my friends? What are the needs and wants of my coworkers? What are the needs and wants? So that’s my empathy question. So I’ve got my self-awareness on board, which is me understanding my relationship with myself. I’ve got my empathy on board, which is me understanding my relationship with others.

Vision

I then turn on my vision light, and my vision light is my bigger picture. This is where you can go back to your mission or your vision. “What are my goals and desires in this area?” So what are my goals and desires, big picture, as a manager, as a leader? What are my goals and desires as a father? What are my goals and desires, the kind of the big-picture vision?

Conscience

And then the fourth question I like to ask is my conscience question, which is, to me, is kinda realigning myself to my character, to my integrity, my spirit. And that’s where I just ask the question, “What’s the most important thing I need to do to have the greatest impact today?” And sometimes I just do that with four questions. Sometimes I can do that with four questions in every role. But what I’m trying to do is attune to every relationship I’ve got: my relationship with myself, my relationship with my others, my relationship with my vision and purpose, and my relationship with my conscience and my higher power. And then I just try to do the important, right?

John: When you do that, Matt— These are amazing. So self, others, and then the third light, the vision light.

How to use the four lights

Matt: Vision light. And that’s why— that’s where your mission statement, your vision statement comes into play. You can just renew your vision and your values. These, by the way, are great questions you can also ask at the end of a manager evaluation session with one of your people. “Hey, let’s just quickly go through four lights and turn ’em on, and I just wanna see what we can work on. Based on what our feedback is today, what part of the problem and solution are you?” And then they come up with a solution.

John: That’s awesome.

Matt: “What are your needs and wants?” Yeah.

John: These are simple.

Matt: And that’s just run through the questions.

John: And in terms of what you’ve seen and experienced with these, is this a daily, a weekly…?

Matt: Yeah.

John: Uh, it could be a couple times a day, I guess. They’re not unique.

Matt: It could. You know what, a lot of times for me, when I teach this is after you’ve had a pretty heavy conversation with your partner maybe, or, um— this could be after a meeting where we just had to, like, do some serious reevaluating. These are four great questions for all of us to ask before we leave. So it’s a question any manager out there could ask the team. Great. “Based on what we’ve talked about in our meeting today, what part of the problem were you? What are the needs and wants of your co-teammates? What is our vision and goal based on today?” And that they— by the way, give them time to answer each one. And the conscience question: “What’s the most important thing you need to do this week to impact this meeting and this goal so next week we’re doing better?”

John: I love it. I love it. Hey, let me ask you this. We’ve got time for a couple more things. There’s so much in that, and I just wanna see if, uh, you’d be willing to, you know, join us again—

Matt: Yeah, I can do that.

John: —and then kind of stay with us on this. There’s a lot I’d like to go in there. I’m thinking of… I wanted to ask you a couple of other questions related to where you’ve seen conflict. Even in a long-standing relationship, there’s always an opportunity, uh, to help someone feel trusted or feel better, to help someone succeed. What are some of the breakthroughs you’ve seen with people you do— You have, uh, products and services where you do coaching, um, and so you’ve seen a lot of people.

Matt: Yeah.

Smoke versus Fire

John: What are some of the exciting things, uh, that you can bring? It could be just a common misunderstanding or it could be a deep conflict, like you said, in either business or family situations. But give us a couple of examples or just principles that we could remember, and then let’s dig in on those another time—

Matt: Yeah.

John: —just to make things stronger, because there’s such a dramatic difference when trust is high compared to when it’s low—

Matt: That’s exactly right.

John: —or when there’s good feeling. What if— I know we’re asking you to—

Getting to the real issue

Matt: No, no, no, no, this is what I do every day. But one of the most important things I think I’ve learned ever as when we work with people— so the first time I remember, um, I started being a mediator, and I started watching couples that would divorce, okay? And every couple would present a conflict in a really peculiar way but very similar way. What they would always do, I would teach, is they’d always focus on the smoke but not the fire. They would never really get to the real issue.

They would focus on the irritable, irritating, I mean, smoke. The stuff that was noxious and toxic and— For example, one of my first couples when I mediated, they were about to divorce, and I’m like, “’Kay, so what’s going on?” And the husband’s like, “It’s stupid. It’s her purse.” Okay? She bought a four-hundred-dollar purse. So notice, that’s how he presented the issue. “It’s a four-hundred-dollar purse.” She then responded, “It’s not a purse, it’s a bag.” And I’m like, “Um, what? I don’t know what you mean.” She’s like, “It’s not a purse. He’s calling it a purse. It’s actually a bag.” And then he got mad and he’s like, “I don’t care what you call it, it’s… Nobody needs a four-hundred-dollar bag.” ’Kay?

So notice, in one second, one minute, basically, we’ve gone from her purse, to four hundred dollars, to a bag, and then she says, “Oh, really? Um, how much was your golf bag?” And then right then he couldn’t hear, he’s like going deaf on her, and he’s like, “What? What are you talking about?” And she’s like, “You just said no one needs a four-hundred-dollar bag, but you just bought a bag. How much was your golf bag?” And he’s like, “I don’t know. The bag?” And she’s like, “The bag. You bought the bag, and the bag you put your bag in when we travel. How much was that whole set?” And notice, their emotion just kept going up and up and up, and he said, “I don’t know, three-something?” And she’s like, “Three what?” He’s like, “Three seventy?” And then she rolls her eyes and she says, “Honey, three-seventy is four hundred.” And then he’s like, “Nuh-uh! Three-seventy is three-seventy. Four hundred is four hundred.”

Now they’re fighting about how they round a number. ’Kay? And then very quickly, she then started saying, “You always did love golf more than me.” So now we’ve gone from bags to purses to golf, and I would watch this over and over, and then eventually, John, everybody always ends up offending someone’s parent. “Well, your mother!” and then we’d throw a mother in there. But the reality of the issue that was going on is we’re fighting about all of these things that aren’t the real thing.

The STARVED Stuff: The Seven Basic Needs of a Relationship

So after watching and doing this hundreds of times with people in mediation, I realized that we’re only fanning the smoke. And some of us, when it gets tense, we just fan stuff. And some of us, when it gets tense, we run. Some of us fight, and some of us flight. And those are the number one and two drivers of how we handle conflict. But most of us never sit still enough to get down to the fire.

So I teach that the fire is the real issue, and I teach that there’s seven basic needs that need to be met, and when they’re not met, almost universally, you’ll see fire and smoke. So the seven needs I call the STARVED stuff. And any time— So this is the number one thing to manage conflict, is start to pay attention to the starved stuff. Seven things, okay?

Safety

Need number one is safety. I gotta feel safe with you. Okay, that means physically safe so I’m not gonna be harmed, socially safe so that I won’t be embarrassed by you, emotionally safe so I can share what’s in my heart, financially safe so we have enough money, spiritually safe so we have the same value system. So almost always, like that couple fighting about money, they didn’t feel safe financially. So it’s a safety issue. It’s a financial safety issue.

But somebody might come into—one of the managers watching this—they might come into the company during a snowstorm and be mad that there’s ice out there on the sidewalks. So we fight about the ice and the snow. That’s not the real issue. The real issue is their safety. Everybody in a long-term relationship needs to feel safe. So if you think about someone that you’re struggling with in a relationship, just ask yourself, what’s it like being in a relationship with you? Do you make ’em safe? Do they feel safe?

Trust

Second basic need is trust. I gotta trust you. You guys talk about trust all the time, right? And if you get into Stephen M. R.’s content, trust is kind of two things. You gotta be trustworthy, which is “I gotta trust your character, and I’ve gotta trust your competency.” So if you wanna have a long-term relationship, we’ve gotta trust each other’s character and competency.

Appreciation

“A” stands for appreciation. Everyone wants to be appreciated differently. My wife is kind of a seer, I say. She feels love through her eyes. She wants to see me vacuuming, right? And cleaning, and happily doing it. And I’m more of a toucher. I’d rather have a hug, I’d rather— I’m a hearer, I’d rather hear positive stuff. And so I wanna be appreciated differently. Think about the people that you’re working with. Do they feel appreciated by you?

John: And the power of simply asking them, right?

Matt: Just ask!

John: “How can I help you?”

Matt: Well, and you know what you can notice, like, you could just ask something like, “What do you like that I’m doing so I can keep doing it?” And whatever you hear ’em talking about is probably going to tell you how they wanna be appreciated. If they just like that you talk to ’em, they just like that you send ’em an email once in a while. I remember having bosses at Covey that all I wanted to do was just have their time. Having a little time with them is what mattered, right?

Respect

So we have to have safety, we have to have trust, we have to have appreciation, we have to feel respected. “R” stands for respect, and respect has the word “spectacle,” spect in it, which means we have to feel like we’re seen with reverence or awe. People need to revere us, and every one of us has that need. And if our boss doesn’t know our name, then they don’t respect us. If they don’t take our ideas, then they don’t respect us, right?

Validation

So we have safety, we have trust, we have appreciation, we have respect, we have validation. Can we have a conversation where we’re both valid, or do we have to invalidate each other to have this conversation? Do I have to blow up your idea?

Encouragement

“E” stands for encouragement. Everybody needs to know that their partner has their heart. The word “courage” comes from the Latin word cor and the French word coeur, which means heart. So to encourage somebody, you gotta be in their heart. Do they know your vision? Do they know your dreams? Do they know your goals?

Dedication

And then the last need is dedication. Everybody needs to know that someone’s more dedicated to them than any other person, place, or thing. Are you dedicated to my team? Are you dedicated to the company? Are you dedicated, or are you more dedicated to your promotion?

When those needs are met, life is great. When the needs aren’t met, we feel starved, and the basic rule is “starved people starve people.” So when I listen to somebody arguing, or they bring in an issue, I don’t usually just take the bait and go with the issue; I get ’em talking, and I let ’em start exploring it, and as they’re exploring it, I try to pay attention to where they’re starving, and then I try to validate their starved stuff. “So it sounds like you feel disrespected by what so-and-so did or what so-and-so said.” And then I just listen, ’cause what’s powerful is, once you know the deeper need, right, now you know motivation. And now I can motivate you.

Compounding effects

John: Wow, those are powerful. What—If I match those with the four you gave us earlier—

Matt: Yeah.

John: —and we’ll put these in the show notes too—as, what would be something today that, you know, where you could say, “Try this.” Because those seven… I saw there’s a lot of reciprocity in those, too.

Matt: Yeah, there is. Yep.

John: And they build on each other.

Matt: Which facilitates the spiral, right?

John: Yes.

Matt: Which is why we spiral down, or we can spiral up.

John: Yeah. right. We have the advantage of paying attention there. It seems to me that as— I’ve done some, uh—non-legal but short of legal as a leader—uh, conflict resolution, and it’s amazing how powerful it was just to kind of listen.

Matt: Yeah.

John: And all seven of those seem strengthened by—

Matt: Yeah.

John: You could actually pick any one of them and say, “Wow, tell me more how I can help you feel this way.”

Matt: Yeah.

Overview of Relationship Principles

John: But what have you seen, and what’s something we could do today? I’m thinking of, uh, whether it’s a grandson, uh, a friend, or someone on the team at work? Or if I’m retired, I’m just as busy as— This is what we’ve heard from at least half of our customers that have moved. Their projects, they have businesses.

Matt: Yeah.

John: Uh, is there something related to age? Do these principles apply if you’re a teenager?

Matt: Yeah.

John: And then if you’re in your seventies?

Matt: Yep. Universal. Timeless, predictable…

John: Give us some ideas; we can walk away today and try one or two things.

Suspend certainty

Matt: Yeah. Some things that I have just found are kind of— they’re just, their power is, um, number one is—and this was so cool ’cause it was a massive part of my PhD program: “Suspend certainty.” We think we know because we’ve been in the business thirty years. And so because we think we know, we quit being curious. So what I— So the minute somebody says something, even a question, I love to suspend my certainty and I always like to go—I call it “double dip.” I try to go back and, “So it sounds like you’re asking me about this. Tell me more what you wanna know.” And I like to go in one more level deeper. Um, if, for example, if I go home and my wife says, “Oh, I had the hardest day,” I shouldn’t pretend like I know what that means. “Well, you had a hard day? Well, blah, blah, blah.” I might just say, “Whoa, babe, it sounds like you’re exhausted. Tell me what went on today.”

And I try to inquire again, and because— And here’s the secret, is once they give you the first hit, I want you to recognize the emotion. The emotion is the tell that there’s a deeper story. So then I want you to recognize the emotion, and then I want you to try to explore the story under it. Not your version of it, theirs. I want them to talk. Because if I see their emotion—“I can see you’re frustrated, talk to me”—then that tells them I see them. And if you explore their story and I let them tell their story, then that tells them I hear ’em. So now I’m seeing them and I’m hearing them, and then I attend inside of their story to where they’re starving. I pay close attention to safety, trust, appreciation, respect, validation, encouragement, dedication, and I pay attention to it, and I hold it up. “So it sounds like when Stacy and so-and-so said this, it really felt like it rejected you. You felt disappointed, like you weren’t invited. Is that what you felt?” And then I let her explore it more.

Get REAL

So now I’m seeing her, I’m hearing her, and I’m attending to her. And then what I love to do is I then love to lift the conversation, and I lift it by trying to show where I’m with them. I agree, I admit, I accept, I appreciate, I acknowledge, “that’s gotta be so hard.” And then I use the word “and.” “And” is such a powerful word. “And…” and then I can tell them my side if I need to. But by the way, that’s called “Get REAL,” and whenever somebody’s starving, what we try to do is get real with them. We recognize their emotion, we explore their story, we attend to where they’re starved, and we lift the conversation. And when we get real, we heal. And we start to heal these people, ’cause for the first time they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel understood, and they feel lifted. And then it doesn’t mean I still can’t give ’em feedback, but I give the feedback with an “and.” “And this might help next time, and this might help if you want it.” But we call that REAL.

And by the way, I did a TED Talk, so if they Google “Matt Townsend and TEDx,” I did a fourteen-minute TED Talk on how to get real with people. But “Get REAL” is what we’re all craving. We’re all so sick of the fake. We’re so sick of the phony, and the pretense, and the— We just want somebody to know us and like us. And one of the things too, John—just to remember, like about that starved stuff—is that starved people… A lot of times people aren’t starving because you’re starving them. They’re starving because someone else in their past did. And they don’t know how to be fed, or they don’t know how to trust.

Let the first wave of emotion go

So there’s a great rule that all of us can probably live, which is assume you don’t understand it, right? And assume there’s way more to this story than you know. Which is why the power of suspending certainty, which is really just a principle of being proactive— Use your character to not have to react, and let that wave of emotion go over you. Take a deep breath. We know that if you’ll let the first wave of emotion go over you without fusing to it and jumping in, we know within about ninety seconds, you can self-regulate and the emotion will go away. And then we can actually turn to our values and our principles to know how to proceed. But we’ve gotta let that first wave go, right? That’s the beginning of emotional intelligence is not getting caught up in the wave, but letting it go.

Locate the fire, identify the starved stuff, and get real

So whenever there’s smoke, get down to the fire. The fire’s the starved stuff. Always has been, always will be. And the way we get deeper into the starved is we get real. We recognize, explore, attend, lift. By the way—universal principles. They work for kids, they work for eighty— I’ve done this with ninety-year-old people that, like, you can’t believe they’re in my office, and they’re fighting over something sixty years earlier. And it’s ’cause they don’t know how to just… They don’t know how to let it go.

John: Wow.

Matt: And so we’ve gotta learn to do this REAL stuff. It’s power. There’s power when we get real with people.

Final Thoughts

John: You know, as I listen to you and I think about my life, and really talented and also, you know, just strong people, um, I met with a leader of a title company today, and in just a few seconds, because we got talking and it was business and some things we were gonna work on together, I learned from him of just some very challenging things health-wise his wife had gone through, and then, uh, and what that had done to him, and then also learned that at the same time he had written two books.

Matt: Yeah.

John: And as he had written about some of his experiences, he healed. And then it was a combination of, as I drove away, I thought, “I had no idea what he was going through,” and I also didn’t know him that well. And now, just in a simple conversation, I was amazed and interested. I was genuinely listening, and I could tell that meant so much to him. As I listen to you—

Matt: Yeah.

John: —give that example, it’s inspiring. Haven’t you learned that it tell— These are a couple of what you’d say fundamental premises. We almost mention every show that inside all of us is greatness.

Matt: Yeah.

John: And I’ve said brilliance, and then I’ve, you know, checked it against research, and they say, “Well, one person could be different than the other.” But what I mean by that is, huge potential in us.

Matt: Yes.

Be a leader in your relationships

John: And greatness, as well as there’s a leader in there, and we can lead our own lives. And what you’ve talked about is it seems like there’s leadership here to help lead in a very productive relationship, too.

Matt: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

John: And both people are… you know, tap their leadership ability—

Matt: Yeah.

John: Say, “Let’s listen, let’s connect, and really move this forward.” Isn’t it, I guess, an extension of that kind of positive mindset? Isn’t there an immense opportunity, whether you’ve had really… [Laughter] You might make your list and say, “Oh my gosh, I wish that was different.” Isn’t there a great story, or isn’t there great hope—

Matt: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John: —in doing the things you’ve mentioned, those four lights, that we really can change something that hasn’t been great?

Matt: That’s right.

To influence, you must be influenced

John: And we can implement something better?

Matt: Yeah, especially ’cause—think of it—the more you understand, right, in order to influence, you must first be influenced. And so there’s power when you’re open to being influenced. And because now all of a sudden you can go where they need you to go if you have the tool set to go there. If you don’t have the tool set or you don’t even see the need for it, you’ll just skip over it. But there’s power when you’re open to being influenced. And then all of a sudden, you now have way more power to move them because you’ve gone on that road with them, so you understand their journey. You understand that.

Find your inner virtues

And that, that is… What is inside of each of us is this divine spark, as Emerson and Thoreau would talk about. It’s this virtue, and Marty Seligman, a great psychologist, used to say that inside of each of us are these virtues, and the virtues just need to be placed in action. But in order to do the action, you’ve gotta actually first do the awareness work to figure out what these virtues are in you, which is the mission—all of those, the visioning activities. And then what you can do is you can actually start to put ’em in action through your daily planning, and— but it’s inspired action. It’s revealed action. It’s no longer just root action. It’s actually revealed, because you’re using your day-to-day insights to actually customize it.

“Relationships have inherent value”

So there’s— That literally is honestly why I think the source are the space between, I call it, the relationship. It’s not the one plus one that equals five hundred. It’s not the ones that make the difference, right? It’s the plus sign. That space between has a value. That plus sign, we can call the relationship. Relationships have inherent value, which is why if you have the relationship through a good conversation with somebody as their leader, you actually have the power now in the space with them to turn one and one into something bigger. But if you don’t work well in the space, the relationship, then you don’t know how to take it bigger. You don’t know how to make it bigger.

John: Right. Right.

Matt: They don’t trust you enough to tell you what needs to be done.

Dr. Townsend’s Invitation

John: Well, Dr. Matt Townsend, thank you for—

Matt: You bet.

John: —the time here together. We barely touched the surface here, but thank you for this. I’m gonna— I’m just gonna give you a heads up.

Matt: Yeah.

John: Think of an invitation here, uh, as we close here, and that you might, you know, offer to our listeners. And while you’re thinking of that, let me just thank everyone for joining us, on this podcast and others. You know, as this area… You know, it’s like it only becomes more important as you age, or as you increase awareness. Who matters to us? What are our roles? And I feel in the timeless principles kind of a deep respect for others, whether you know them well or not. And Dr. Townsend, it seems like there’s a reciprocity here. As we’re thinking about how to listen and help others, what’s happening inside of us is very positive, right?

Matt: Yeah.

John: We’re… This is happening within us. But, thank you so much for joining us. What invitation as we close off here—this has been fantastic, thank you again.

Matt: You bet.

John: What invitation would you offer to our listeners going forward?

Start with the four lights

Matt: One of the most important things is, um—and it’s super hard, I think, for all of us to do it—but the invitation might be to think of one relationship that you know you’re struggling with, that you know is important to you that is just not where you want it, and then what I would have you do is go just start asking yourself those four lights. In that relationship, what part of the relationship issue have I been? Um, the empathy question: What are their needs and wants with you? The vision question: What do I want most with this person? And the conscience question: What’s the most important thing I can do, this week or today, to improve this one relationship right now? And then go do that one thing and, and just see what those lights turn on.

Listen to your conscience

What does it do for you? Because what’s cool about that, your conscience already knows. Your spirit already knows, which is why, again, to enact a planning process without your spirit or your essence or your conscience being involved is to probably miss the mark, right? You’re just spinning plates. We don’t need more plates spinning. We need the essential facts to kind of ooze out of us. And so make sure you go to your lights to get that insight—there’s just power to that—and then see what happens, and then do it again tomorrow. What’s your next relationship? Do it again tomorrow.

John: What a great invitation. What a great invitation. I’m on this. I’m on it.

Matt: Awesome. Thanks, John.

John: We thank you for that, Dr. Townsend. And for our listeners, thank you again for joining us. We’ll have a lot of information in the show notes. We’ll invite Dr. Townsend back.

Matt: For sure.

John: And remember, uh, as my co-host that couldn’t join us today, George Wright says it’s never too late to create the life that, you know, is there for you to fill your potential. And relationships are giant. They’re a huge part of it. So thanks again. Thanks everybody for joining us. Have a great day, and we look forward to meeting with you again.

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The Franklin Planner Team

About Matt Townsend

Dr. Matt Townsend has been energizing and involving audiences with his unique approach to building and maintaining successful relationships. Known as one of America’s top presenters in the field of Human Relations and Development, Matt blends humor and storytelling with interactive, real-life solutions that inspire motivation and immediate results in his audiences.

Having dedicated his life to the study of communication and interpersonal relationships, Matt has worked extensively in the areas of results-oriented communication, conflict resolution and time management training. As a lead presenter for industry leader, Franklin Covey, Matt worked with the Family & Special Market Division and created the company’s largest train-the-trainer program, certifying more than 900 trainers to teach his customized time management curriculum.

Links

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LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmatttownsend/